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Dean
23-07-08, 13:47
Basically, after having my beloved pooch put down a few weeks back due to illness, i'm now starting to think of getting another. Always had cross breeds from the RSPCA rescue centre and they've been great but like the idea of pedigrees. Only problem is i have no idea what to be looking for? I like medium to large dogs, needs to be a good guard but nothing crazy agressive and must be happy being left along for a few hours at a time. Any ideas?

BHB 10.6.6
23-07-08, 13:52
Pedigrees are (IMHO) a waste of money for what is essentially a piece of paper.By the product of their nature we always had pedigree Springer Spaniel GunDogs. The pedigree thing was essentially because we sired and had many pups from them all of which were kennel club approved etc.Great dogs but they need to be active constantly or they go nuts. I'd look at why you want a pedigree...if it's for show or work purposes then sure go for it but if it's for a family animal you really should stick with rescue dogs give an animal a chance of a life it's missing. Oh and as for breeds stick down the line with a Labrador?

Stephanos Wephanos
23-07-08, 13:58
I concur, get a happy family mutt from the rescue centre.  Too many pedigree dogs are so inbred they suffer a lot of congenital problems.  Best of all rub the kennel clubs nose in it and get a pedigree reject, a mate of mine always gets white boxers (they are supposedly put down at birth as they are not a pure pedigree).

Dean
23-07-08, 13:59
No real reason why i've been looking at pedigrees, other than the different breeds have different personalities, requirements etc and its easier for me to start looking at what kind of dog i want. Its not going to be a family dog, just mine but will have my house mates for company too. TBH, i think i'll always look at rescue dogs as the 3 we had as kids were fantastic.

BHB 10.6.6
23-07-08, 14:01
To follow on from Stevey Springers often die of cancer, dalmations are mostly blind, boxers can't breathe.You will see many vet's now suggesting enough is enough.Don't get me started on breeders...blood boiling hardly comes close on the matter!

Dean
23-07-08, 14:07
Really that bad for congenital problems? Also, i can think of some stereotypical images of dog breeders

Stephanos Wephanos
23-07-08, 14:21
Can be, depends on the breed and how inbred they have become, even alsatians suffer from back problems I believe.  The kennel club are a right bunch of 'nazis' when it comes to deciding what the correct size, shape and colour for a breed of a dog is and generally in order to keep the pedigree anything that doesn't conform will be put down.

BHB 10.6.6
23-07-08, 14:28
"put down" that's not exactly the way it's done though is it...

Stephanos Wephanos
23-07-08, 14:31
Yes I know, I know... the tweed wearing middle age lady doesn't condescend the little pup, she gives it swimming lessons in a bucket...

Frichie
23-07-08, 14:34
Hate breeders, my family always used to pick up the runts from RSPCA. Always made such loving animals, you could tell in there eyes that they were very lucky you came along when you did to choose them. Just dont expect them to learn any commands or tricks unless you have one from a puppy. I did however get my dad a Scottish Terrier after my previous dogs died. Had such a fantastic character, really miss her :~(You can find loads of resources on the net describing each dogs characteristics. Labs - great for a family  and fairly lazy so low maintenance , Gun dogs - Family and loners, highly energectic and require constant stimulation. If i ever move to a house which will accomodate some dawgs, I reckon I will get a gun dog so i can take it on rides with us. When I rode the Penmachno trail in Wales, I tagged along with a group that had the coolest spaniel, which followed us all the way around the 22km route. It obviously had learnt some ride etiquette and would always for the last rider to go before following, and absolutely loved the singletrack.

Dean
23-07-08, 14:37
Umm, not sure i'd like to be assosiated in anyway with people who "give swimming lessons in a bucket"! I do like the sound of what your mate does Stevey W, rescuing odd balls, just wouldn't know what to be looking for or where to start.Sounds like the rescue centre may be the best option, although i do like Alsatians.

Dean
23-07-08, 14:41
Frichie, that sounds like the kind of dog i want, some thing to ride with and to go running with! Did actually bump into a woman with 4 Hungarian vizslas this morning, which were gorgeous and what made me think of getting a new dog

BHB 10.6.6
23-07-08, 14:47
Frichie we took ours up every walk we ever did in the lakes. for every 10 metres we walked they'd do 30 by running circles around us...mental animals. They learn very fast but are a stupid as pie.Collies are similar in energy and requirements but the most intellignent dogs I've ever known. I'd love an Alsatian/German Sheppard incredible dogs loyal strong need a good running but not to the extent of other working dogs.If you've a family I'd stay clear of small breeds, family friends who had Westies snarling in the faces of babies has scared the shit out of me.Don't ever be put off staffies and other 'danger dogs' like dobermans and rottweilers...it's like saying every shotgun owner kills people but with that animal you need to have great responsibility and be prepared to put some serious training in.

Dean
23-07-08, 14:58
Wanted something bigger than a Staffie, Dobermans always have appealed to me, we had a doberman cross whan i was little until i was about 16 and she was the best dog we ever had.

Derek Hunter
23-07-08, 15:31
IMO there is one big problem with a rescue dog and that is that you often miss out on the key impressionable time just after they are weaned. The most important time of a dog's life for socialising it is from 8 weeks to 12 weeks old. That's the magic window when you can safely get it used to just about everything: travelling in vehicles, other dogs, cats, livestock, gunshots and other loud noises, children, washing machines etc.If you get a three or four month old puppy from the RSPCA then you've got an uphill stuggle to get it properly socialised. Yes, we've all heard of the rescue dog that is lovely with it's owner, but for some reason hates children/cyclists/the postman. Lack of early socialisation is the reason.We've had our three most recent dogs from breeders after a lifetime of rescuing strays and I have to tell you I'd never have a rescue dog again. I'd buy a puppy from a breeder I trust every time. From some of the comments on this page I get the impression that 'dog breeders' are being lumped into one big categaory - a bit like "used car salesmen". Well buying a dog is a bit like buying a car. You tend to get what you pay for and there are plenty of dodgy people out there trying to rip you off - caveat emptor?Are sure you're really not saying: "Why should I pay £400 for a dog from a reputable breeder when I can get one free from the RSPCA?". Because that's what it sounds like to me. With a rescue dog you are inheriting someone else's mistakes. When you've owned the animal from a puppy at least you know all the mistakes are yours.FWIW we've got a Parson Russell terrier and a Labrador. Great dogs both of them

Frichie
23-07-08, 15:56
There are breeders that are official, that take pride in their dogs and keep them well looked after , are regulated by an association. But then you also have breeders that are only out there to make money, having some bitch that litters puppy after puppy only because they see it as there cash cow and milk it for everything it is worth.

BHB 10.6.6
23-07-08, 16:06
A deaf Dalmation is the same to good breeder as it is to a bad breeder and the deaf dalmation puppy gets the same just one gets a needle one gets a brick.Christ the breeder of our Springers had two in gemmas litter put down because they were lame.

Dean
23-07-08, 16:26
Derek, thanks for the input, its not really a case of "Why should I pay £400 for a dog from a reputable breeder when I can get one free from the RSPCA?", the money doesn't really come into the equation as i'd be happy spending that amount on a breed thats just right for me. The thread was more of a 'what dog for me?' type. Very good point on an older dog being more difficult to accustom to new surroundings and experiences, i certainly don't want a dog that nervous around bikes or other people.Either way, pedigree or rescue, i'd be looking at a pup. Thanks guys

Derek Hunter
23-07-08, 16:47
BHB - I'm not quite sure what point you're making, but you're not suggesting that it's a good idea to breed from an animal that produces lame or deaf offspring are you?

BHB 10.6.6
23-07-08, 17:30
Of course you wouldn't breed from that stock but either could still make a pet for someone. However, the fact that breeding from an increasingly inbred population makes these health problems more common. Ask any vet about their opinion on something like pedigree bulldogs

Derek Hunter
23-07-08, 17:52
The problem with passing on an animal with a genetic defect as 'a pet' is that you are relying on the new owner to have it neutered when it is old enough.We had cat with a deformed leg from a breeder (as a pet) and the breeder paid us to have it neutered when it was old enough. She also stopped breeding from the female cat and had that neutered too.That seems pretty responsible behaviour from both owner and breeder to me. And it put a stop to the possibility of passing on 'bad genes'.Re: pedigree bulldogs - Well that's why our animals are all from working stock. Pedigree, but workers nonetheless. If you want bulldogs with decent confirmation you'll need to, erm.. bring back bull baiting?

Dong.
23-07-08, 18:55
And i just got rid of my last lurcher pup today, you could have had her...

Frichie
23-07-08, 18:59
Everyone should have the pets neutered or spaid. Its highly irresponsible  ownership to allow dogs or cats to go around getting preggers. And in most cases its people are too lazy to do it, or think the dog needs its balls.....they still lick regardless

Matt ....
23-07-08, 20:03
we rescued a lovely 1 year old black german shepherd about 4 months ago, she'd been in the kennels for 3 months and while obviously 'balanced' did have a few issuesInitially she was scared of all the electrical goods, hoover, shredder etc. but with a bit of perservernace shes now fine with all of them - although she does still enjoy having a little fun chasing the lawn mower!Our biggest challenge has been her nervousness when visitors come in the house - she had a habit of nipping at them. As with all things worthwhile the rehabilitation will take some time, but shes making great progress!I couldn't have chosen a better dog to rescue, even if she is a strong willed bitch!

Nobby
23-07-08, 21:03
Black Heart Billy* wrote (see)Of course you wouldn't breed from that stock but either could still make a pet for someone. However, the fact that breeding from an increasingly inbred population makes these health problems more common. Ask any vet about their opinion on something like pedigree bulldogs Interested by that final comment Billy.  Some friends of ours have recently got one of THESE and whilst it's very cute (as a pup) it's freakishly strong.  I'd never heard of them & there appears to be only 1 breeder in existence so I'm guessing they could be in for a rough/expensive ride with this one?

Vegemite
24-07-08, 06:03
I'd say get a rescue dog.  We've just got our second (vet reccond she was about 9 weeks when we got her) and she is turning out to be a great pet.We think 'Chance' is a cross between a black lab and a collie.  There were plenty of other pups there and if you get them earlier enough there are none of the issues raised. Also, allthough the RSPCA are great, there are plenty of other rescue centres out there and IME they are easier to deal with.

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 08:24
Nobby it's about the trouble bulldogs have with breathing and general respiratory problems...a bit like the inbred stupidity in Springers and their propensity to develop cancer.

Frichie
24-07-08, 09:11
Most dogs can still be trained or atleast get accustomed to anything. But it is a lengthy process and requires constant attention by the owner.

Mr.Wilson
24-07-08, 09:44
My Dog (Charlie) is a German / Belgian shepherd mix. She's 10 next month and we rescued her from an abusive home at 18 months old. Up until that point she'd never spent the night in a house and had to compete with other dogs to get to the food. She's the soppiest most loving animal you could wish to meet but it did take some work. She still barks when people come to the house (which is fine with me) but she's never bitten anyone (or another animal). Any rescue dog potentially needs 'work' to help them through a transition but I think if you're sensible enough to really be evaluating what breed is right for you then you are more than ready to do the required work with a new dog.Speaking of congenital defects Charlie has had both hips replaced, has arthritis in her elbows (they could replace them as well but she's getting to the age now where recovery time would be limiting to her quality of life). A lot of her skeletal problems could have been avoided with correct nutrition from puppy stage onwards and I can't stress enough how important it is to feed good food (not Pedigree Chum). Yes, it'll cost but it's worth it.And please, please make sure any dog you do get is insured with Petplan. They've been fantastic with all our Animals - Charlie alone has cost them over 8,000 just for her two new hips and for that we pay 30 a month. It's well worth it.Oh, and please don't disregard the older dogs / young adults. There are so many of them in shelters that desperately need good homes after being turned out because they're no longer cute enough.

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 09:46
dude you're gonna make me cry

Frichie
24-07-08, 09:49
A dogs not just for christmas....if its big enough it will last till new year Too many people get pups for the cute factor and then when they get older are no longer interested in it. Its a damn shame!

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 09:52
Anyone remember the public service advert where the greyhound got thrown out on the motorway?It's funny I can see genocide in Rwanda and a thousand starving africans...but if I see a dog in pain i'm reduced to a balling wreck

Mr.Wilson
24-07-08, 09:57
I'm exactly the same. I can't even watch Animal Cops anymore without turning into a sobbing blob.(That's Charlie, BTW)

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 10:01
Beautiful dog...I've not got any of Sam here (he was my Springer up to a point all the dogs were definately my dads dogs but Sam just was mine in the pack order don't know why).Anyway when he finally shuffled along, I took his ashes up a very snowy and white out Bowfell where he'd merrily jog along next to me fell running over crinkle crags. We always had good times on Bowfell so his ashes are there and when I shuffle along my ashes will go there too.

Frichie
24-07-08, 10:04
I pictured Charlie like this

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 10:06

Mr.Wilson
24-07-08, 10:10
Wow. A pocket charlie would've been so handy at times!Damn you BHB on one hand you make me go all teary and then I laugh at the kid getting owned by the Lab. Twice! Awesome.

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 10:14

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 10:15

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 10:16

Mr.Wilson
24-07-08, 10:19
Duuuuuuuuude

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 10:21

BHB 10.6.6
24-07-08, 10:23
And the all time fail dog classic....

Roger Rogue
24-07-08, 12:54
If you go down the Labrador route - don't get a show dog go for the working variety.

Dean
24-07-08, 22:02
Thanks for all the input guys, i'm still not quite decided on what to do but going to keep thinking and talking to a few people, see if i can make my mind up

Vegemite
25-07-08, 16:25
You can borrow our new dog "Chance" if you like - Just bring her back in about 10 years!

Nobby
20-08-08, 00:14
Watched that documentary about so-called 'pedigree breeding' on BBC1 tonight - some scary stuff.I really had no idea that so many breeds were being bred to the edge of extinction yet there's no laws protecting the pooches.  As one vet said, if you took a big stick to a dog every day to cause it pain they'd lock you up but if you breed a dog with an inherent problem that will cause it constant pain that's okay. King Charles spaniel breeders need to be beaten to death with their own shoes IMHO.

Mr.Wilson
20-08-08, 00:18
Can I bring my boots instead? Would be so much more painful (I have some heavy boots). B'stards the lot of them. And the vets who support the practices are no better.Round 'em up and have a good old fashioned lynching.

Mike S
20-08-08, 00:45
You need to start at the top and get the Kennel Club to get its house in order.

Errrmmm Yesss ( Dyl, 69ers still ROCK )
20-08-08, 02:06
Dean dude,  don't do it pedigree that is,  had alot of dogs of my time mainly all crosses which have been great,  fun dogs that have lived to good ages,  where as the 1 pedigree dog we had from Rusty Lee the cook ( Hateful bitch ),   was so interbred it major health issues and died @18months old,  the rest of the dogs she has all went similary.Seems to be a well repeated story they just ban selective breeding!! Stick to rescue dogs I miss my dogs shame no room here and too many cats

Eddie
20-08-08, 06:06
I'm sure it has been said already, but if you can, please get a rescue dog and not one from a breeder or pet shop.  There are so many animals out there, both pedigree and mongrel, that are in need of a home that there is no need to get one other than from a centre.We've had 5 rescue dogs, all who have ended up being pure-bred (or so nearly so that we couldn't tell) and all have lived very long lives, well beyond that which their breeds are expected, ie: 14 years for a lab, 12.5 for a collie, and we've loved them all to bits.

BHB 10.6.6
20-08-08, 08:46
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7569064.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7569064.stm

Jeff H
20-08-08, 09:54
ive had my dog for 14 years now, she was a rescue dog and shes been the most loyal pet ive ever known, me and the mrs also sponsor a dog at the dogs trust that cant be re housed for various reasons, im like some others on here id give my last pound to the dogs trust but bugger all to these aid charities.this is jess

Mr.Wilson
20-08-08, 10:04
Cute, but she's going to pee in your shoes one night to get you back for that photo

Jeff H
20-08-08, 10:42
maybe not that one, possibly this one though

Dr Dolittle the pedalling chinchilla
20-08-08, 11:45
Both of mine are pedigrees - because the problem with some crosses is you don't know what they are going to be like. At least with the pedigree I knew that my Retriever would be big, soppy and daft whilst my Springer would be a 900mph mental turbo beast. However they are both from working stock - bred to do things not to look pretty. Working dogs aren't as inbred, and you certainly don't push them to the point of constant discomfort as they couldn't do their jobs*. Interestingly in the case of Springers working and show versions now look really different. * Greyhounds are the exception, but then racehorses suffer the same way.  

BHB 10.6.6
20-08-08, 11:56
Springer would be a 900mph mental turbo beastGenius

Derek Hunter
20-08-08, 15:44
...but then racehorses suffer the same wayAnd what way is that? 

BHB 10.6.6
20-08-08, 15:54
And what way is that? Being made to run around a fucking track for a living you nonce*

Nobby
20-08-08, 16:11
Racehorses suffer because they are ridden/raced before they are fully developed causing pain and often deformity but that's a whole other debate. At least there are rules on the breeding process.

Derek Hunter
20-08-08, 21:54
That's a bit of a sweeping statement isn't it Nobby? My ex-racehorse is 24 and still going strong. I guess he's the exception then, eh?

Nobby
20-08-08, 22:04
No, not really.  Racehorses tend to suffer in their early years because they are ridden too young - once you stop racing them or they are full grown then the problem reduces/desists.  Often, however, it can cause defects such as curvature of the spine and weakness in the knees. *Many ex-racers go on to live a full & healthy life but this does not necessarily reflect their early years.  The big difference with horses is that these issues are not bred into them but are part and parcel of the 'job' they do.* All according to my stepdad who wa a jockey for 16 years.

Mr.Wilson
20-08-08, 22:56
The problem with racing horses too young (show jumpers can have the same problem) is that it buggers up the growth plates which is where the pain and deformity comes in. Like Nobby says, there are rules in place to protect the horses which is at least a step up from the way the Kennel Club operates. With horses it's more down to handling & care whereas with pedigree dogs they've got no way out of the pain and defects that are bred into them.

Derek Hunter
21-08-08, 13:04
Ah - yes, I see what you mean now. There's always a few crocked four year olds pumped fulll of Bute at the Doncaster bloodstock sales

Mr.Wilson
21-08-08, 13:54
Sad, isn't it? We got a Dutch warmblood a few years ago who passed his medical checks (required so we could get insurance for him) then it turned out he was dosed out of his mind on Bute & that Steady Up stuff. He needed the steady up because he was in so much pain when he was ridden. Poor bugger.He's happily out to pasture now. Only 14 years old.My Mothers solution is to make the breeders of the dogs suffer the same pain or symptoms as the dogs they breed. A trifle drastic but I'm sure if that were to be done they'd pretty soon stop breeding them that way.I still agree with the shoeing of said breeders. Grrrrr.