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SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:10
Over to you.

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:15
Hmm don't know SloBoy, what's your take

Pacamack
15-06-04, 10:16
good if your employer throws it in for nowt. never had to use mine

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:16
A tricky one - you hear so many diverse opinions. Although not round here, obviously.

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:18
Ah - a customer, excellent.That's what I was thinking, MB. Although a teacher I know once pointed out to me that private education was a bad thing" cos it meant that those controlling public education weren't customers of it."

JaseT
15-06-04, 10:19
lolGood.....We have a private health scheme at work which for a small extra fee you can also add your nearest and dearest on to. I haven't used it yet but if me or any of my family require an operation this'll be the route i go down. I do like the NHS to be fair, and here in Harrogate they're been extremely efficient during the numerous times i've visited A&E for bike related injuries!

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:21
Probably have to sign up before you're sick, Jase. They'll exclude any prior conditions when you join (it's all basically insurance based after all)

Pacamack
15-06-04, 10:22
When I played rugby I used to have my own seat at the A&E at Worthing!

Southern Piece-of
15-06-04, 10:28
Excellent if the Consultants involved don't abuse NHS resources, and it doesn't draw skills away from the NHS. In the future I'm sure we'll see the burden of healthcare shifting to employers and private schemes. The cost then being knocked on to their customer base. all sounds heavy.

JaseT
15-06-04, 10:29
I am actually already signed up. Yeah, they won't let you in if you get ill then sign up!MB you can't beat A&E on a saturday or sunday morning. Much limping!I don't even go if i get injured at footy because you get a lecture thrown in with the treatment!

Not at all Disgruntled Llama
15-06-04, 10:31
Depends what the problem is SloBoy. If its life threateningly serious i.e. cancer then the NHS are excellent. If you need non-essential" treatment, i.e. a hip replacement then probably not.Then there is always the question of whether supporting private medcine draws resorces away from the NHS. But let's not go into that. "

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:31
It is slightly odd the way that the industry is best structured for mid-range treatments, and you do seem to be at the mercy of your insurer. My mum has had masses of care under her personal scheme - 10's of thousands of pounds worth - heart surgery, abdominal surgery, pain management and they're still willing to cover her.My parents are in their mid-70's and private care for them seems to be self defeating commercially. The more and better care you give 'em, the more they're likely to need over the long term.

Pacamack
15-06-04, 10:34
The NHS is private healthcare, we all pay an insurance premium through taxation

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:37
whether supporting private medcine draws resorces away from the NHS"the key question, surely.So if I go and have a bit of day treatment at the private wing on the local NHS trust, can't see I'm doing anyone any harm, as long as its being run on a proper commercial basis. But if I get a ride on their MRI scanner ? But maybe they couldn't have bought the scanner without a business case based on joint private/NHS use ?There's a moral point in here somewheres but I can't quite find it."

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:38
we all pay an insurance premium through taxation"Tax payers only (I know every bugger has to pay VAT, but you know what I mean)"

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 10:45
Sorry bit brief - so your premium" is based on your ability to pay, not on your risk characteristics"

Pacamack
15-06-04, 10:50
SloBoy, I'm really bored too but I need more sleep before I can give this thread the attention it deserves!

ttt
15-06-04, 10:58
Isn't there an argument about more people using private healthcare and taking money away from the NHS resulting in a two tiered health service. ie those who can pay get good 'private' healthcare, those who can't afford it and use the NHS get a second rate service?

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 11:02
Bloody good thing, waiting lists are v long , the nhs is overstreched with aging population etc. waiting times in my area for an appt to see a knee specialist are up to 4 years. Orthopaedics/neurology/dermatology etc have v long waiting lists also. If you want something non life threatening sorted out go privately. However if you need emergency care in the uk the NHS are the only way to go.

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 11:05
TTS no money is taken from the nhs for private healthcare. Private healthcare actually benefits the nhs by removing people who can pay/have private cover from NHS waiting lists.

Pacamack
15-06-04, 11:09
did you know that Bupa is an NFP organisation so none of the money you contribute in premiums goes in dividends or to private owners

ttt
15-06-04, 11:11
OK, but surely if a certain % of the population more to private healthcare, at some point the government are going to turn round and say less patients = less funding.

Domeo .....
15-06-04, 11:18
AS NI payer you are paying for a service that you don't use by going private which you or your employer pays for. shouldn't we get cashback on each occasion we opt for private treatment?

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 11:22
Unfortunately in britain we have a huge dependant population who never contribute anything to the tax coffers so chances of a rebate are nil!

Troll Hattan
15-06-04, 11:23
Private hospitals are staffed by NHS-trained doctors, nurses, etc. If htere are NHS waiting lists it's often because of staff shortages, where the richer patients are buying a queue-jump by going private.

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 11:28
NHS-trained doctors, nurses" - unlike the NHS hospitals that are staffed by folks brought in from other countries and trained at some other taxpayers expense."

Not at all Disgruntled Llama
15-06-04, 11:28
I KNEW I shouldn't have mentioned the moral question. The problem as I see it (and it is a little hazy I admit) is that my taxes paying to train doctors who then seek to charge me for private treatment. If they want to practice privately then they should get trained privately.Secondly, the Private and Public Heathcare sectors are competing for resources such as doctors and nurses. As more people seek private care, the demand for doctors and nurses increases in this sector. So where do they draw these doctors from? The NHS. Waiting lists get longer because the doctors and consutants are doing more and more private work. This has been the case with my son. Treatment? Oh that will be in 3 years time because I'm spending all my time earning shit loads in the private sector.This is the last I will say on the matter as I'm sure it will turn into a shit fight.

Not at all Disgruntled Llama
15-06-04, 11:30
Ok one more thing - how would you feel if your taxes paid for doctors who went to work o/s for the NHS? Its not right is it?

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 11:36
Most people who pay privately never go on nhs waiting lists. Drs have every right to work privately in a free market- remember these are often the guys who have been up every other night for the last 15 years running NHS hospitals. Lots of consultants perform their private practice after normal working hrs anyhow. There are NHS waiting lists as we dont have enough health care professionals in the UK per head of population due to long term underfunding, New advances in treatment/drugs are always V expensive increasing the burden more on limited resources. We spend less %ageGDP per head on healthcare than nearly anyother developed country-therefore we get the NHS we deserve.Income tax increase anyone to cover this?

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 11:39
Not sure you can rely on the training" argument - presumably David Owen went through the NHS/Government training system and he ended up as Foreign Secretary - the point being you have no control over what people who train in medicine or anything else actually end up doing.Also, I'm not clear how the hospital teams work, so whether medical students and junior doctors on a firm work the whole of the consultants patch - private & NHS - or the trust's patch - private & NHS - or just NHS.As for NHS waiting lists - is it really down to lack of availability of human resources - i.e. that they have funded headcount that they can't fill in the competitive market - or do they just not have the funding.I would have thought that bottomless funding solves all issues."

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 11:40
By the way Drs now pay for their own training My GP exams cost over a grand, My fiance spends several thousand a year on books courses to further her training. Also I took out big student loans to cover my medical training which I have only just repaid. If you put restrictions on where we can work lots of Drs will leave the uk worsening the problem!

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 11:44
Only the consultant works privately Sloboy generally, the juniors tend to work in hospital only, occasionally the registrar may assist with private operations ( but attending these is part of their training anyhow)Lets face people in britain want A1 public services but dont want to pay for them

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 11:45
But presumably the theatre staff, for example, on a private op in an NHS hospital are the same people we see on Casualty every week ?

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 11:47
Yep and the insurance will be billed for their time and equipment.

Odd Brown Mutt
15-06-04, 11:49
The way I see it is that I have a job, and without the intrusion of a major upset in my life, I forsee myself having a job all the way until I retire, and if something awful was to happen to me, I do have life insurance that will cover my lving costs. With this in mind, and given the choice, I would rather not pay National insurance at all, and instead invest the money into Private health care and a decent pension plan. Is that not fair enough? By the time I retire, there are not many people out there reckoning there will still be a state pension, so why should I continue to make NI contributions with this in mind? I thought the new Higher education tuition fees and stuff, meant that we - the tax payer - no longer pay for peoples education. Therefore I could not give a stuff what the people who train to be doctors do with themselves once they have qualified. Even now, i think the doctors we currently have, had to work for many years in hospitals in conditions that basically resemble a sweat shop, so I think they have probably earned the right to get a little bit of financial relief in their old age.

Odd Brown Mutt
15-06-04, 11:51
Oh, predictably my employers already pay life insurance, and private health care, so I guess I may be biased.Or just a bit too right wing.

Pinky Gigglehead
15-06-04, 11:56
Surely a reduction in the number of back office administrators & tiers of management that up until recently were unnecessary would make running NHS hospitals a far more viable prospect.Transfer the money that some of them are raking in and put it into the healthcare thay should be providing

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 12:01
I have no particular problem contributing both to government spending and to private spending as a double contribution". I regard the provision of a healthcare system free at the point of delivery as being good social karma. But then I have been known to vote Liberal."

Alun Hemington
15-06-04, 12:02
Your not wrong there pinky! This government is obsessed with audit and mangement and there are more people running " the health service than ever before, Some of these guys are on huge six figure wages (loads more than consultants earn at present) and have things got better no, but they will probably show you and audit that says they have;o)"

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
15-06-04, 12:08
Ah - the spending of public money you see. Option B would be to really outsource to commercial management companies. Your mess, for less" as its known in the IT world.Pinky can tell us a bit about that as well. Lots of pain and grief ensues, but you can never be sure whether it's actually been better than the alternatives or not."

Paul C
15-06-04, 12:11
If you can afford to pay for private healthcare (and education) without significantly affecting your own income/disposable income for general living, you should do so in order to free up as much of the national resource for those more needing of it.Discuss.I have heard the above discussion and understand it but dont neccessarily agree with it whole heartedly.

mark (i know nothing)
15-06-04, 19:33
if you can afford it great, but also you will never appriciate it until it has saved you from months of misery or worse, years ago in australia where private health care is more the norm, my dad needed a quadruple bypass, the doctor said we can do next week what day is convenient for you, he was home 8 days later, try that on the NHS, he is still alive and kicking now 15 years later thanks to that, you should have seen the bill though, bloody hell, but all paid for

4AM - The Gate Monitor
15-06-04, 20:06
I've been with BUPA for 7 years and its worth every penny of the 40 a month I pay.It's not my fault that the respective Governments of the last 40 years have fucked the NHS senseless. I've had 2 knee operations and if I'd been reliant on the NHS I'd probably be still waiting. A mate of mine has been waiting since last March (2003) for a knee operation and might get it in July if he's lucky. I had mine done in 8 and 10 days respectively from seeing my GP to having the op. I had the top knee surgeon in Europe and post-op was excellent with top Physio's and facilities.Regards taxation (NI) funding the NHS - thats bollocks. The NI contributions we all make go straight towards state pensions following the 1940-50's post war baby boom - all of whom are now retiring. The NHS gets eff all of the money paid in NI, thats why it's in such a mess. Lack of forward planning by government.If I had the money, then I would send my kids to private schools also. I don't see it as essential and wouldn't sacrifice othe thisngs for it but if I had the disposable income then I'd consider it. If society can sustain private medicine/education then why not?

chapel gate demon
15-06-04, 21:44
off the point, as normal. but im on my fifth week off work due to my little biking accident.fighting a losing battle with the ever approaching chasm of insanity, bordering on the edges of alcoholism.my trusted companian lay limp in a dark corner of the shed, the silver shimmer of a spiders web shrouds the pringle shaped front wheel,the last dregs of brake fluid drip from the ruptured line.....back to the point that isnt there;first time in hospital ever since i was born,fantastic staff not to shoddy service from ambulance to operation.thank you to all involved.thats how i found my first brush with the NHS.AND i got that titanium upgrade i could never afford,ok its in my shoulder.....

Mister Khomenni
16-06-04, 12:12
I don't agree with private health schemes, because I see it as a way of paying a bribe in order to jump queues. The foundations are all built on the NHS system paid for by taxpayers (which basically means everybody), then people can buy in to an improved service. If people want to build their own hospitals, contribute to the cost of training doctors etc, then pass the cost on to customers who prefer to be private, then that's ok by me - but it isn't what 'private health' means in most cases.I've got no grudge against people who use it though, in fact there is a case personal to me where private helath might be needed.

Alun Hemington
16-06-04, 12:24
Freedom of choice?

Numpty!
16-06-04, 12:33
Dude! Don't do it yourself!This kind of private medicine should be banned. I performed a simple Frontal Labotomy on myself, or to be exact,on the reflection of myself in the mirror.needlessto say, it went horribly, horribly wrong.Steer clear.

SloBoy - Carrying the scars
16-06-04, 12:51
Freedom of choice indeed. As a higher rate tax payer I pay loads for the NHS, so it seems to be reasonable that I should be able to elect to pay for even more. As this thread has batted back and fortha few times, it's not crystal clear whether private care helps or hinders (or neither) the NHS.So by voting only for parties that support the principles of the NHS and paying all the tax they ask me to, I think I'm clear to pay more for more.

mark (i know nothing)
16-06-04, 17:47
i think mr khomenni hasn't got the point on private health care, no-one is queue junmping at all, private health care is a separate entity to the nhs which you pay for yourself, no-one who goes into private hospital is pushing an nhs patient away, the nhs can do that all by itself.private health care has to help the nhs ultimatly as all those patients treated privatly otherwise would have to use the nhs and in most cases problems treated privatly are treated much earlier (because of no waiting list) so the complaint does not become more serious ie more expensive to treat.if you then think that private patients should pay the full cost of training medical staff from scratch,that could be said for any industry, industry will hire people who can do the job not people(in many cases) who need to be trained.

4AM - The Gate Monitor
16-06-04, 19:11
As I see it, you pay income tax and NI and can't escape it. Therefore you aren't buying something of your choice. If you can afford to pay PMI premiums and have a choice then that should be up to the individual.Put it this way. The Govt decides to buy every citizen an MTB. It's a 38lb piece of steel shite with the lowest grade componentry available to keep costs as low as possible. Are you saying you'd ride it or pay more for a better bike in the 'private' sector? I take my health at least as seriously as my riding so I choose to get private cover.BTW, when I had my operations I visited a specialits office, 2 hospitals, 1 physiotherapy clinic and none of them were NHS services so I don't view it as queue jumping. My GP even said when I went for initial consultation 'thank god you're insured, you'd probably not get the op on the NHS as it's a sports injury and non-essential, I can't see why anyone partaking in sports wouldn't have medical insurance'.Defence rests.

mtbm
16-06-04, 19:13
if you can afford it why not it should be down to individual choice imo

Alun Hemington
16-06-04, 22:55
Yes 4AM it is great when people are insured!

Oxygen Thief
17-06-04, 07:59
Personally, Private Healthcare is worth having, like others on this thread, my company pays for it, but after having to use it I think I would pay if I had to. A few years back I burst the lense in my eye, I mentioned to the Surgeon I had private healthcare, that evening (a monday) the private consultant phoned me, saw me the next day and operated on the thursday. I would probably have jumped queues anyway due to the nature of the injury, but it was good to know I was being looked after by the best in the field. I had a private room in the ward with different food to the other patients, I felt uncomfortable about that part I have to admit, especially as the one nurse referred to me as 'The Private Patient', but I wouldn't want to be at the mercy of NHS waiting lists these days..